Rebuttal to Sam Shamoun’s article
A Series of Answers to Common Questions
By
http://www.answeringislam.org/Shamoun/q_god_dying.htm
Question:
If Jesus is God, how can God die? Who was running the
universe those three days that Jesus was dead?
This shall be my first official rebuttal to Sam Shamoun of www.answering-islam.org. In
this article I will address his so called answer to the common argument of many Muslims
around the world, which is how could Jesus die if he was God? God does not die. Sam
Shamoun basically played with verses and words to try to make sense of the whole
situation. He also managed to very wrongfully interpret the Koran on the issue of
mujahideen who have been killed. However I find this as a common trait among Shamoun,
writing long articles, with lots of verses with his own interpretations. Basically
it’s Sam Shamoun’s way or the highway. By the end of the article I will prove
that the argument on ‘ how could Jesus die if he was God’ still stands, and that
Shamoun miserably failed to answer the question. However Shamoun most likely confused the
reader and the questioner even more as I will show below. Anyway, enough with the talking
and now to the article.
He wrote:
Answer:
Implicit in the question is the assumption that death implies non-existence, so to say Jesus died implies that God ceased to exist, which cannot happen. The problem is that the definition of death is wrong since according to the holy Scriptures death does not mean non-existence, but rather refers to the separation that resulted from Adam's rebellion against God. The Scriptures tell us that as a result of the first man's sin, two types of separation occurred. The first is spiritual "death" where a person is severed from having fellowship with God, being separated from God's loving, intimate presence. Instead of God's love abiding upon an individual, it is the divine wrath that rests upon him:
"The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.'" Genesis 2:15-17
After disobeying God by eating from the forbidden tree, the man and his wife were then banished from the presence of God in Eden:
"And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.' So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:22-24
Scriptures continue to elaborate on this spiritual separation that has occurred as a result of sin:
"For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil will not sojourn with you. The boastful will not stand before your eyes; you hate evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful." Psalm 5:4-6 NRSV
"If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear." Psalm 66:18
"Rather, your iniquities have been barriers between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear." Isaiah 59:2
"Then they will cry to the LORD, but He will not hear them; He will even hide His face from them at that time, because they have been evil in their deeds." Micah 3:4
"Your eyes are too pure to behold evil, and you cannot look on wrongdoing..." Habakkuk 1:13
"But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed… But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Romans 2:5, 8
"As for you, you were DEAD in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to LIVE when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us ALIVE with Christ even when we were DEAD in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved." Ephesians 2:1-5
In this last passage, Paul speaks of believers being dead in sin prior to their regeneration and union with the Lord Jesus. Yet it is obvious that believers were still conscious and alive when they were dead in sin. Being dead in sin doesn't mean ceasing to exist, but refers to being separated from loving union with God, just as the passage itself states.
My response:
Shamoun raised up some very interesting points, but the fact of the matter is those were his own interpretations, the same old story. Let us first begin with the first verses he used which was Genesis 2:15-17 which states: The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.'" Genesis 2:15-17
Basically it is made crystal clear by God in these
verses that if Adam eats from the forbidden tree, he will die. Let’s look at another
verse, this time it’s Eve talking with the serpent and let’s see what she has to
say.
Genesis 3: 1-4
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
So
here we see the serpent trying to persuade Eve into eating from the tree, which the
serpent eventually manages to do. But however, in these few verses once again it’s
made clear that if they would eat from the tree they would DIE, the serpent however tries
to comfort her by lying and saying they shall not die but become as gods. However,
eventually both Adam and Eve do eat of the tree.
Genesis 3: 6-8
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good
for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and
he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and
they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves
aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God
walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from
the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden
So we see from these verses both Adam and Eve eating
from the tree, ultimately disobeying God’s command. Now lets see the reaction of God.
Genesis 3: 22-24
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is
become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take
also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the
garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the
east of the Garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep
the way of the tree of life.
So that is basically the end of it. Now to the main
point of Sam Shamoun, which is quite frankly very absurd to say the least is that he
interprets Genesis 3:22-24 as the promised punishment of Genesis 2:15-17 in which God
warned Adam he would die if he ate from the tree, so would anyone else including Eve.
Barring the major contradiction here, which is that they did not DIE, Shamoun tries to
clear this mess up by implicating that when God said they would die by eating from the
tree, is that God meant a spiritual separation, getting banished out of heaven and being
sent to earth. However this is truly illogical thinking and twisting of words. In the
entire context of Genesis 2:15-17 and Genesis 3:1-4, it is clear that these verses
ultimately means DEATH, no where do you get the impression from those verses is that they
meant a spiritual separation, getting thrown out of heaven. It would be much easier if
Genesis 2:15-17 and Genesis 3:1-4 would just state that they would be separated from God
and thrown out of heaven, rather than dying.
But the verses are crystal clear by implicating death,
that’s why Adam and Eve were never to eager to eat from the tree, as we see from
Genesis 3:1-4 when Eve is being tempted by the serpent. Being banished and being killed
are two completely separate matters; you cannot mix the two together and say by death God
meant throwing them out of heaven, a separation. The argument does not stand, the fact is
Adam nor Eve died, they were just thrown out of heaven, which you could say was a
spiritual separation of God, but by no means does that mean some sort of death. I would
also like to ask Mr. Sam Shamoun to also further elaborate on what he means by a spiritual
separation from God, does he mean that God no longer cared for Adam? That Adam no longer
prayed to God? That God no longer heard the prayers of Adam?
To address another small point Shamoun made in his
opening statement is that death does not necessarily mean non-existent, that is true, but
that still doesn’t change the fact that someone did DIE, so at the end of the day, if
you die you die, that’s the bottom line of the case. Moving on.
Shamoun then uses Psalm 5:4-6 to continue his argument
that Death includes a separation from God, although most of the next verses he used
basically don’t mean much to the question that is being asked which is ‘ if
Jesus is God then how could he die’ that is the question, Shamoun may have found a
solution to the other part of the question, which is who was running the earth and
universe in those 3 days, which is basically dying does not mean your non-existent, but
however he fails to realize Jesus did die at the end of the day, being existent or
non-existent is irrelevant because God never dies. Lets post the verses he used.
Psalm 5:4-6: 4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in
wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou
hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the
LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man
Lets start from the beginning of the chapter, from Psalm
5:1 all the way verse 6 1 Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my
meditation.
2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and
my God: for unto thee will I pray.
3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O
LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.
4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in
wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou
hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the
LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
One would now really have to ask Shamoun, what does this
have to do with anything? The verses are clear. It’s a prayer by a man who is calling
on God, and we already know most of the things being said by the man making the prayer.
Yes evil does not dwell with God, nor does God enjoy wickedness and so on as the verses
elaborate. Interesting in verse 6 it is made clear that God HATES the people who cause
problems, ‘workers of iniquity’. What ever happened to the God who loved
everyone? I’ll leave that for Christians to answer. So reading those verses one must
ask what does this have to do with Jesus dying? God never dies. So basically no point has
been made.
Moving on…
Shamoun the Quoted Psalm 66:18, which basically states: 18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will
not hear me:
And Shamoun’s point is? There is no point; this
basically has NOTHING to do with the entire topic. True the lord hates workers of iniquity
as Psalm 5:6 pointed out, so why would God listen to a prayer of a man who is looking for
trouble? But again what ever happened to the God who hears all? Turn to Jesus and he will
hear you, well its clear in this verse God will not hear your prayer and just abandon you,
which is what Shamoun is basically trying to show, so good job buddy, you just took away
the myth which the Christians use so often ‘our God loves all and hears all’ so
at least we know that’s not true, so thanks Sam!
So far Shamoun has been going into a topic to try and show Adams death means a
spiritual separation with God as you can see him using the other Psalm verses and other
ones such as Isaiah 59:2, Micah 3:4, Habakkuk 1:13, and Romans 2 5,8. It is quite obvious
he is trying to link these all to the situation of Adam, but the situation of Adam was
clear, eat from the tree and die, not eat from the tree and have a spiritual separation
with God. Shamoun then uses Ephesians 2:1-5, which at the end of the day does not solve
the problem IF JESUS WAS GOD HOW COULD HE DIE? God never dies.
He wrote:
The second type of "death" that the Holy Bible refers to is physical death. This is where the soul/spirit departs from the body and the body returns to the ground from which it came. And, as our sin-bearer, the Lord Jesus experienced both types of death, i.e. the loss of intimate communion with God and his soul departing from his body. We will have a lot more to say about this in response to the next question in our series.
Yet, neither types of death results in non-existence or cessation of life. Note for example, the following citations:
"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel." Hebrews 12:22-24
"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." James 2:26
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." Revelation 6:9-11
Interestingly, not only is the questioner's definition of death unbiblical, it is also contrary to the Quran:
And say not of those slain in God's way, 'They are dead'; rather they are living, but you are not aware. S. 2:154
Count not those who were slain in God's way as dead, but rather living with their Lord, by Him provided, rejoicing in the bounty that God has given them, and joyful in those who remain behind and have not joined them, because no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow, S. 3:169-170
My response:
Well I must say the argument is over, Shamoun has no answer.
The only thing he does have is giving a solution of who was running the universe those 3
days that Jesus was dead, and then again these are his own interpretations, so they are
not even 100% sure. However, the fact remains JESUS DID DIE, THE PHYSICAL DEATH, and God
never DIES, in Shamoun’s own words: The second type of "death"
that the Holy Bible refers to is physical death. This is where the soul/spirit departs
from the body and the body returns to the ground from which it came. And, as our
sin-bearer, the Lord Jesus experienced both types of death. Case
over God never dies, Jesus did die.
I would like to address Shamoun’s terrible way of using the Koran to try and help his argument out, which to say was pathetic at best. Shamoun quoted surah 2:154: And say not of those slain in God's way, 'They are dead'; rather they are living, but you are not aware
He also quoted surah 3:169-170:
Count not those who were slain in God's way as dead, but rather
living with their Lord, by Him provided, rejoicing in the bounty that God has given them,
and joyful in those who remain behind and have not joined them, because no fear shall be
on them, neither shall they sorrow
It seems Shamoun has missed the
important part of both verses, which is that the people who were killed in God’s way,
such as fighting for him or doing something for him and then getting killed. The main
important point Shamoun overlooks and ignores is that they WERE KILLED, THEY DID DIE. So
Sam basically has no points in using these verses, it seems he cant get the most important
fact through his head, JESUS DIED, God never dies!!! Sure lets take Shamoun’s
argument and say Jesus was not non-existent when he died, the fact remains he still DIED.
The verses from the Koran don’t help his case either, because those mujahideen also
DIED, since he is trying to compare them both, then he again admits that Jesus did DIE,
and for the millionth time God does not DIE.
He wrote:
This echoes the words of the Lord Jesus Christ:
"But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." Luke 20:37-38
Christ, therefore, did not cease to live when he died on the cross since, as the Holy Bible teaches, the Lord's soul was still consciously alive during the three days his body lay in the tomb:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, AND I WILL RAISE IT AGAIN IN THREE DAYS.’ The Jews replied, ‘It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and YOU are going to raise it in three days?’ But the temple he had spoken of was HIS BODY. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken." John 2:19-22
"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down OF MY OWN ACCORD. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:17-18
The only way that Christ could be able to raise himself from the dead is if Christ were still consciously alive. This establishes that Christ did not cease to exist for those three days that his body remained in the grave. Both Christ’s divine nature and his human soul were still conscious during that period of time.
So in answer to the question, the one true God always exists as three distinct Persons even during the entombment of Christ’s physical body. And, even as his body lay buried, Christ was alive and sovereignly sustaining the universe along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
My response:
Once again the fact remains Jesus died, God does not die. Shamoun then starts
talking about Jesus rising from the dead, God never rises from the dead because God never
dies, so the rest of what Shamoun has had to say basically still shows Jesus died. Just to
make Shamoun happy, sure buddy Jesus was still existent when he died, but buddy he still
died, and God does not die. Shamoun tried to answer the question but ultimately failed, he
actually destroyed a great myth of Christianity on the God who loves all and hears all. He
also managed to go into topics, which basically had nothing to do with the topic at hand,
HOW CAN GOD DIE? The question remains ‘ HOW COULD JESUS DIE IF HE IS GOD, GOD DOES
NOT DIE’.
My Rebuttals, and exposing the lies of the Answering Islam team section.
Rebuttals to Sam Shamoun's Articles section.
Sami Zaatari's Rebuttals section.