Rebuttal #11 Part II
By
Question:
The Bible says that God has never been seen (cf. John 1:18), and yet
Jesus was seen and heard. This again proves that Jesus cannot be God.
http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_seeing_god2.htm
This shall
be the second part to his official article which can be located here:
http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_seeing_god1.htm.
My rebuttal
to his first article can be located here (^)
He wrote:
Just as in
Part 1 (on John 5:37), a careful reading of the passage helps to resolve the problem.
Notice that in John 1:18, the Evangelist says that God's Son, WHO HIMSELF IS GOD, has made
God known. How did he do this? By becoming flesh. John therefore affirms that GOD has
appeared visibly and revealed himself to others when the Son took on human nature. (Cf.
John 1:1-3, 10-11, 14)
Furthermore,
the God whom no one has seen is the Father. Note the text again:
"No one has ever seen God. It is
GOD the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known." NRSV
So this in
itself suffices as a response since John is not denying that God has ever been seen, but
that the Father has never been seen.
With that
said, we must now understand what John meant that the Father has never been seen.
My response:
To start
off, the verse is explicitly stating that GOD has not been seen at anytime, and the verse
does not say God is the son. Let us quote the verse:
John 1:18: .
No man hath seen God at
any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared
him.
No where
does the verse show the son is God, and no where in the verse does it say no one has
HEARED the Father, it explicitly states that no one has SEEN the Father. The fact is also
that Jesus is not God, the Father is the only God, and no one can see God at anytime.
Hence, you cant see the Father, so Shamoun's attempt at saying it only says you cant see
the Father doesn’t work because he has yet to prove Jesus is God. Jesus is not God as
was seen in my previous rebuttals and my previous 8 rebuttals [1]
[2] [3]
[4] [5] [6]
[7] [8].
So Shamoun
makes an argument out of nothing. The verse does not state the son is God. The fact
remains, God cannot be seen, and Jesus was seen. Therefore, Jesus is not God. Simple
logic. However let us also quote Exodus 33:20 which also completely breaks Shamoun's weak
response to John 1:18.
Exodus
33:20: And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live
So my
question to Shamoun is, who was that in Exodus 33:20? Was it the Father speaking? Was it
Jesus? Who was it? Shamoun will not be able to answer the question without assuming who
was the one speaking there. However so, Exodus makes it clear that no man can see God's
face, not the Father, not the son, but GOD. Shamoun cannot jump to his weak argument of
saying the verse is only talking about the Father. So in light of the fore going passage
it is safe to conclude, that John 1:18 means that you cannot see God at anytime, and that
Jesus is not God, as exodus 33:20 blows Shamoun's feeble attempt of saying John 1:18 is
only referring to the Father. John 1:18 is referring to the one true God, who is referred
to as the Father. You put it together, and the fact is that God cannot be seen at anytime.
Jesus was seen, therefore Jesus is not God. Simple logic.
He wrote:
A careful
examination of the context shows that John is actually expounding upon the Greek
Septuagint (LXX) of Exodus 33:7-20:
"And Moses took his TABERNACLE
(ten skenen autou) and PITCHED IT without the camp, at a distance from the camp; and it
was called THE TABERNACLE of Testimony (skene marturiou): and it came to pass that every
one that sought the Lord went forth to THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen) which was without the
camp. And whenever Moses went into THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen) without the camp, all the
people stood every one watching by the doors OF HIS TENT (tes skenes autou); and when
Moses departed, they took notice until he entered into THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen). And
when Moses entered into THE TABERNACLE (ten skenen), THE PILLAR OF THE CLOUD DESCENDED,
and stood at the door of THE TABERNACLE (tes skene), and God talked to Moses. And all the
people SAW THE PILLAR OF THE CLOUD standing by the door of THE TABERNACLE (tes skenes),
and all the people stood and worshipped every one at the door OF HIS TENT (tes skenes
autou). And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as if one should speak to his friend;
and he retired into the camp: but his servant Joshua the son of Naue, a young man,
departed not forth FROM THE TABERNACLE (ek tes skenes). And Moses said to the Lord, Lo!
thou sayest to me, Lead on this people; but thou hast not shewed me whom thou wilt send
with me, but thou hast said to me, I know thee above all, and thou hast favour with me. If
then I have found favour in thy sight, reveal thyself to me, that I may evidently see
thee; that I may find favour in thy sight, and that I may know that this great nation is
thy people. And he says, I myself will go before thee, and give thee rest. And he says to
him, If thou go not up with us thyself, bring me not up hence. And how shall it be surely
known, that both I and this people have found favour with thee, except only if thou go
with us? So both I and thy people shall be glorified beyond all the nations, as many as
are upon the earth. And the Lord said to Moses, I will also do for thee this thing, which
thou hast spoken; for thou hast found grace before me, and I know thee above all. And
Moses says, Manifest thyself to me. And God said, I will pass by before thee WITH MY GLORY
(te doxe mou), and I will call by my name, the Lord, before thee; and I will have mercy on
whom I will have mercy, and will have pity on whom I will have pity. And God said, Thou
shalt not be able to see my face; FOR NO MAN SHALL SEE MY FACE, and live. Exodus 33:7-20
My response:
Yes God will
show them his glory, not himself, because God cannot be seen, and no man can see God's
face, because if you do you shall then die. However if Shamoun is trying to show that
Jesus is God's glory, this doesn’t change the fact that Shamoun believes Jesus is
God! Hence your still looking at God, and seeing God, and no man can see God at anytime. I
knew Shamoun would try to show Jesus as the glory of God, as I said earlier, when people
see God they see his glory, they don’t literally see him. I knew Shamoun would try
and show that Jesus is the glory making it possible for Jesus to be seen and be God, since
he is the glory. However, once again it does not change the fact that Christians believe
Jesus is God! So the fact is that you are still looking at God.
He wrote:
Carefully
note that the passage states that the pillar of cloud descended upon the Tent (skene) in
full view of Israel. The cloud represented God's glory:
"Then the cloud covered THE TENT
OF MEETING (ten skenen tou marturiou), AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD FILLED THE TABERNACLE
(kai doxes kuriou eplesthe he skene). Moses could not enter the Tent of Meeting because
the cloud had settled upon it, AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD FILLED THE TABERNACLE (kai doxes
kuriou eplesthe he skene). In all the travels of the Israelites, whenever the cloud lifted
from above the tabernacle, they would set out; but if the cloud did not lift, they did not
set out-until the day it lifted. So the cloud of the LORD was over the tabernacle by day,
and fire was in the cloud by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel during all
their travels." Exodus 40:34-38
My response:
So is the
cloud God? Since the cloud represented God's glory, does it make the cloud God? According
to Shamoun's argument, yes it does! Because Shamoun believes Jesus is the glory of God,
making it possible for Jesus to be God and be seen. Shamoun has tried to bail himself out
by showing Jesus is the glory of God. However, Shamoun forgets the main point! He believes
Jesus IS GOD! Hence you are still looking at God at the same time. So my question is, is
the cloud God? Since it is his glory? And because you believe Jesus represents God's
glory, does this make Jesus God? If so then the cloud is also God because it also
represented his glory according to you. However the fact is you believe Jesus is not only
glory from God, but God himself! So the fact remains you are still looking at God.
He wrote:
Furthermore,
in Exodus 33 Moses asked God to manifest himself, to show Moses his face. In other words,
Moses wanted to see a full blown manifestation of God's glory as opposed to seeing a small
veiled glimpse of it. God responds by saying that no one can see the fullness of his
Divine glory, the visible revelation of his complete essence. We know that this what Moses
meant since Exodus clearly says that God appeared to Moses and the latter saw him:
"Then He said to Moses, 'Come up
to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel, and you
shall worship at a distance. Moses alone, however, shall come near to the LORD, but they
shall not come near, nor shall the people come up with him.' ... Then Moses went up with
Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, AND THEY SAW GOD OF ISRAEL;
and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky
itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; AND
THEY SAW GOD, and they ate and drank. Now the LORD said to Moses, 'Come up to Me on the
mountain and remain there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the law and the
commandment which I have written for their instruction.' So Moses arose with Joshua his
servant, and Moses went up to the mountain of God. But to the elders he said, 'Wait here
for us until we return to you And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you; whoever has a legal
matter, let him approach them.' Then Moses went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered
the mountain. The glory of the LORD rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for
six days; and on the seventh day He called to Moses from the midst of the cloud. And to
the eyes of the sons of Israel the appearance of the glory of the LORD was like a
consuming fire on the mountain top. Moses entered the midst of the cloud as he went up to
the mountain; and Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights." Exodus
24:1-2, 9-18
Therefore,
Moses was asking to see the whole bare essential Divine glory visibly manifested before
him, not just a small veiled portion of God's glorious majesty.
My response:
It is clear
Moses just saw the glory of God; he did not even say a small glimpse of God! The verses
are clear, that no man can see God, and that no man can see God's face, you are making
your own interpretations up by assuming that God meant no one can the fullness of God. It
is also clear the Bible cant make its mind up if you can see God or not, and it seems a
lot of people are confused by this, hence contradicting the Bible when it says God is not
the author of confusion.
He wrote:
With this in
mind, let us now turn to John's prologue:
"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through
him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was
life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the
darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.
He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might
believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true
light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and
though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that
which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those
who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not
of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word
became flesh AND PITCHED HIS TENT AMONG US (kai eskenosen en hemin). WE HAVE SEEN HIS
GLORY (ten doxan autou), THE GLORY OF THE ONE AND ONLY (doxan hos monogenous), WHO CAME
FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out,
saying, 'This was he of whom I said, "He who comes after me has surpassed me because
he was before me."' From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing
after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus
Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side,
has made him known."
My response:
The fact is
according to you, Jesus is God as well! So you are still looking at God. Shamoun believes
the readers are stupid, because he keeps on trying to show Jesus is the glory of God,
while everyone knows he also believes Jesus is God. Hence, it doesn’t matter if he is
the glory of God, he is still God, and you can still see him, and it is clear that no one
can see God hence Jesus is not God. Shamoun is just going in circles now, and remember, if
we take Shamoun' argument as the truth then this makes the cloud which was represented as
God's glory as being God! I could just stop here as Shamoun has caused enough damage, and
keeps going in circles.
He wrote:
The verb
eskenosen comes from skenoo, where we get skene or tabernacle, the very word used in the
Greek version of Exodus 33 and 40! It is clear that by using the terms skene and doxa, and
by referencing Moses, John is presenting the Lord Jesus as the very glory of God who
pitched his tent among us. In other words, Jesus' physical body is the permanent
tabernacle for the fullness of God's glory to reside in. This means that when John says no
one has seen God, John is referring to the fact that no one has seen God fully
manifestating his glorious essence. Yet Jesus permanently houses God's glory and essence
in the flesh. This is why Christ could speak of his physical body as God's tabernacle, and
why the glory cloud descended upon him, just as it had descended upon the tabernacle:
"Six days later Jesus took with
Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by
themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His
garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking
with Him. Peter said to Jesus, 'Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will
make three TABERNACLES (skenas) here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.'
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of
the cloud said, 'This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to
Him!'" Matthew 17:1-5
"Jesus answered them, 'Destroy
THIS TEMPLE, and in three days I will raise it up.' The Jews then said, 'It took forty-six
years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?' But He was speaking
of THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered
that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had
spoken." John 2:19-22
Thus, John's
prologue is essentially saying that the unseen, invisible God has visibly manifested his
glory by appearing in human form. And that human form just so happens to be the human
nature, the very physical body, of God's eternal Son, the Lord Jesus Christ!
Far from
disproving the Deity of the Lord Jesus, John's prologue does a superb and masterful job of
demonstrating it (obviously due to divine inspiration of course)!
My response:
So therefore
the cloud is God too, hilarious indeed. However so, Shamoun goes in circles again, saying
God manifested in the flesh etc. nevertheless the fact remains that Jesus is God.
Therefore, you are still literally looking at God! However, it is clear that no man can
see God, or see his face. Hence Jesus is not God. As for the rest of what Shamoun said it
is all his basic assumptions and interpretations, so nothing new there.
So the fact
is, Shamoun once again fails to prove Jesus is God. Shamoun showed us he believes the
cloud is God. The Bible makes it clear that no man can see God at anytime, yet Christians
believe Jesus is God. Hence you are still looking at God. No matter how you try to explain
it you are still left with that conclusion which is that YOU ARE STILL LOOKING AT GOD! For
that to be true makes the Bible wrong, and if the Bible is wrong then everything else is
wrong. However the fact is Jesus can be seen because he is not God. So you choose, is
Jesus God? If so the Bible is wrong when it says God cannot be seen, or if you believe the
Bible that God cannot be seen then Jesus is not God.
My Rebuttals, and exposing the lies of the Answering Islam team section.
Rebuttals to Sam Shamoun's Articles section.
Sami Zaatari's Rebuttals section.